In the last episode, Ruth and Becca focused on deciding who we want to be when facing extreme behaviors. In this episode they then about all of the other kids when an educator’s attention is consumed by a child who is showing a stress response.
Show Notes
Choice Literacy sponsored this episode.
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Quotables
“What about the other kids?”
“Who I choose to be in those moments of extreme behavior and how I choose to handle it is modeling for the other kids in the room who I want them to be.”
“I have to choose if I want them to be a group of children who are exclusionary or if I want them to be able to look at a person who is having a hard time and think, ‘You’re having a hard day, friend. I have hard days sometimes too.’”
“If I want the other kids to be able to respond with empathy, I need to have an empathetic response and model it consistently for them so that they know this is just what we do when someone is having a hard time.”
“When you really stop and think about it, you want your kids to learn how to stand in the hard with people.”
“You want your kids to know how to respond when someone is having a hard time.”
“People don’t want their children to walk away when someone is struggling. We need them to be safe, but we don’t want them to walk away.”
“We all have hard days. I need to respond to others how I want people to respond to me.”
“When our brains are tricky, what we need most is someone calm to come alongside us to help our brains calm down.”
“Parents are sending the best that they have.”
“There is so much power that a teacher holds to help kids heal.”
“Teachers are uniquely positioned to help heal brains.”
“The threat is lessened when someone else is calm.”
“It’s really hard to come alongside a dysregulated child who may be exhibiting some really unpredictable behaviors.”
“It is so critical to know how you’re going to maintain your calm when you come alongside the dysregulated behavior.”
“I am going to be strong, sturdy, solid, and trustworthy while the dysregulated child begins to release some of the feelings in their body.”
“If you feel threatened, they have a reason to be threatened.”
“If you don’t feel threatened, their brain is looking for what it should be doing, and eventually, it will mirror your calm.”
“We want to position kids to learn.”
“If we can co-regulate when behaviors are on the lower end of the continuum of extremity, we can prevent some of the more extreme behaviors.”
“It’s about helping kids learn. It’s also about helping kids heal so they can have really fruitful lives.”
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Transcript (AI-Generated)
[00:00:00] Becca: But more and more we’re thinking through like how when we’re at the lower end of the continuum with those distracting behaviors and those lower level behaviors, if we can co regulate, then what is that doing to avoid those destructive and disruptive behaviors?
[00:00:21] Ruth: Last episode we focused on deciding who we want to be when facing extreme behaviors. In episode five, we think about all the other kids when our attacks is consumed by a child who is showing a stress response. This is sticky Hope.
So, Becca, in our last conversation we were talking about just like noticing patterns and who we really want to be when in our classrooms. And as soon as we hit stop recording, you said, but what about the other kids?
[00:00:58] Becca: Yeah, it was just really in my brain partially because that is often the response I hear from other people. When I’m asking people to slow down and, and look at patterns and reflect about the extreme behavior and that child exhibiting the behavior. One of the first things I hear is the other, what about the other kids? They shouldn’t be experiencing this. That we can’t expose them to this. This is traumatic for them. We, we can’t let them be around this.
And I mean that, that in and of itself is a whole conversation. But also like, who I choose to be in those moments of extreme behavior and, and how to handle it is also modeling for those other kids in the room who I want them to be.
[00:01:45] Becca: I have to choose. Do I want them to be a group of children who are exclusionary? Who they are like, oh man, you’re so dysregulated that your behavior is really intense, even scary? I don’t want anything to do with you ever again? Or do I want them to be able to look at a child having a hard time or a person having a hard time and be like, oh man, you’re having a rough day, friend.
And I have a rough day sometimes too.
[00:02:15] Ruth: Right.
[00:02:15] Becca: And so if I want the other kids to be able to get there, I for sure need to be able to have that kind of response and model it over and over consistently for them so that they know like this is just what we do when someone’s having a hard time.
And I feel like it can be really hard for adults to swallow that.
Adults want to protect other children from these extreme behaviors. And in their brain, it’s like a protective thing. And I. We mentioned this in another episode where parents, even parents are wanting like their children removed from these situations. And, and when you stop and think about it, you really want your kids to stand in the hard with people, right? You want your Kids to know how to respond when someone’s having a hard time. And I don’t think anyone wants their child to walk away from someone who’s struggling.
[00:03:11] Ruth: Right.
[00:03:11] Becca: That’s not who we want our kids to be. We want them to be safe.
[00:03:15] Ruth: Right.
[00:03:15] Becca: Like, we need to maintain safety for everybody, But I don’t think we want them to just walk away.
[00:03:25] Ruth: You’ve really pushed my thinking on this, Becca, about how we are modeling for others. But, like, that idea of we all have bad days. Like, there are times where I’m not at my finest now because I’m pretty mentally fit. Right. Like, people aren’t seeing this.
Just really a dysregulated state from me when I’m out, when I’m in school. And that’s true for most of the adults in schools.
[00:03:55] Becca: Like. Right.
[00:03:56] Ruth: Like, we keep it together.
But the truth is, is there’s days when I show up and I’m just not as strong as what I am other days. And that idea of we all have hard days and how do I want people to respond to me, I think is really. It’s just so important to think about. But then also, it’s then coupled, right. Sometimes where like, well, my bad days don’t look like that.
Or I think sometimes you’re like, my extreme behavior isn’t like that. Or even with kids or parents, you know, like, yeah, my kiddo has a rough day, but that might look like they’re withdrawn or they’re quiet or maybe they’re teary. It’s not. They’re throwing every book off the bookshelf at their classmates. And so I think, like, figuring that piece out, too is. Is pretty. It’s just tricky.
[00:05:00] Becca: Yeah. And. And tricky is exactly the word that I use when I’m talking to kids about what’s happening.
[00:05:06] Becca: Like, ooh, this is a really tricky situation. That friend is having a really tricky time.
[00:05:13] Becca: And at home with my kids, like, their behaviors are very different, but they all get dysregulated. And we talk about how sometimes our brains are tricky. And when our brains are tr. What we need most is someone to stay calm and be near us, to help our brain come back down and be calm. And I think about, oh, go ahead.
[00:05:36] Ruth: Well, Becca, you understand something about co regulation, and I just wanted you to talk a little bit more about that, because here’s the thing. Like we were saying last time, kids are showing up this way. Parents are sending the best they have. Kids are showing up, giving us the best that they have, which may or may not look like what I expect a person’s best quote unquote to look like.
But there is so much power that a teacher holds to help kids heal. So we’re not like, we’re talking about kids maybe who have come from hard places whose brains are different. Like they have fundamentally changed and so they can experience, experience these extreme stress responses. And I would love to hear you just say a little bit more about that idea of co regulating, especially when it’s in front of a class, like what we’re actually teaching, teaching young children or adolescents, because they see this behavior too, and they don’t just see it in school, they see it at their jobs or when they go to youth group or at Taekwondo class. Like, we’re seeing this all over society, not just in schools, but teachers are uniquely positioned to help help heal brains.
[00:07:00] Becca: Yeah. And you even talk about how critical teachers and coaches were in helping to heal some of your kids at home. And I see it happening in real time with my kids at home now.
And so much of it comes down to this idea of co regulation. So there, there’s all kinds of incredible, amazing brain research out there that, like, if I tried to explain it all right now, I would not say it eloquently, but the idea of like, the prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed. So like, first of all, keep that in your brain. Like, their ability to make decisions isn’t fully developed yet, and the younger you go, the, the less developed it is. And when they become dysregulated, that part of their brain is no longer accessible. They are in their reptilian brain, which is like fight or flight in their very basic, like, very, very basic part of their brain where, like, their thought is survival and so logic is not something that they can hear. And what they need is someone to come alongside them who’s not in a fight or flight response to help their brain and their, their nervous system be like, oh, I’m not in danger.
[00:08:18] Becca: Because if someone comes alongside them and is also dysregulated, then you have two people in fight or flight and they’re the message they’re sending each other without even talking is, we are in danger and this is bad where, where there’s a threat and we need to respond. But if you have someone in fight or flight and someone calm come alongside it, act the calm can help to overpower the dysregulation. Right? The threat is lessened when someone else is calm. And so with kids, it’s really hard to be able to come alongside a dysregulated kid who may be exhibiting some really extreme behaviors and to stay calm. And that’s why it’s so critical to know how you’re going to maintain that calm alongside the, the dysregulated behavior. And it’s something you kind of learn through experience, right? Like you said, baptism by fire. Like you have to kind of figure out what works for you. The biggest thing that works for me, and this is like, this kind of goes against what a lot of people would recommend is I sit, right. Like, I literally ground myself alongside this extreme behavior. And everyone tells you, like, you should be up and ready in case something’s going to come flying at you or they’re going to come try hurt you. And I can tell you that in my experience, what they do is they come and sit with you, whether they’re 15 or five. They, they come and sit and that act of sitting on the ground and their body on the ground is actually a grounding thing for them too.
[00:09:56] Ruth: Becca I used to do the same thing with our kids too, because when you’re feeling fear, you want to get big. And what I would always do is get lower. So as long as I could get below them, I’m no longer threatening. Right.
And I, it’s, it’s tricky.
It is tricky in a home with four or six kids and it is extra tricky in a classroom with, with lots.
[00:10:24] Becca: Yeah.
[00:10:25] Ruth: But I would agree the more often that I could get lower and also lower my voice so my voice isn’t nearly as loud. I was lowering it. I’m calming. And that’s that idea of co regulating. Like I am going to be strong and sturdy and solid and trustworthy and here while the other person is able to begin releasing some of the stress from, from their bodies.
[00:10:58] Becca: Yeah. And I think as I think about it in the classroom, like if I had a classroom full of kids and a child was exhibiting extreme behavior, I wouldn’t sit on the ground in that moment.
Like that’s, that’s when I’m alone or with just adults who are trained in responding to these behaviors.
That’s when I will sit.
[00:11:18] Ruth: Right.
[00:11:19] Becca: And so you’re, we’re talking about like the, the most extreme situations when you’re in, in a school is when you would be alone or with other adults in, in that kind of behavior with a child.
And that’s when it’s most critical to know who’s in, who’s in charge, which adult in the situation is in charge of deciding what the response is. The Whole team should know how to lead and how to respond, but the lead person needs to be the one deciding. Like, we’re not engaging in any conversation right now. We’re. We are going to, like, yep, we’ll remove all of the. The things that could be used to harm, but we’re not going to talk about it. We’re not going to make a show of it, and we’re not going to take on any of the threats or the things that they’re saying because that adds to the threat in their brain.
[00:12:08] Ruth: Right?
[00:12:09] Becca: Like, if you feel threatened, then they have a reason to be threatening. If you don’t feel threatened, then their body is like, seeking, what should I be doing right now? And so if you can model staying calm, it actually can help them to see, like, oh, like sub subconsciously their brain is like, oh, there isn’t a threat, there isn’t a threat, there isn’t a threat. And slowly you see them calm. If you can maintain your calm now, this is really hard work, right? Like, you’re not going to be able to just walk into a situation tomorrow. And if you’ve never been able to engage in. In a situation where a child’s exhibiting this extreme behavior in a calm and, you know, responsive way, if you’ve never thought or been taught to. To do it that way, you’re not going to be able to do it perfectly the first time. And. And that’s okay, right, because you’re learning, but over time, you learn the strategies that keep you grounded and then allow you to. To help the child become grounded faster.
[00:13:13] Ruth: Becca, I’m so glad that you talked a little bit more about that, because I was kind of thinking, so we’ve talked about this continuum from, like, distraction to destruction, and you were up there on that destruction end. And I was really thinking more down at the distraction end that sometimes we’ll see kids, maybe they’re being silly or they’re getting up a lot or when I think about some of the work that I’m doing in secondary classrooms, what I’ve noticed there is like, they’re maybe checking out. There’s some avoidance that even I still employ that getting lower too, because it’s. It’s evening the field, right? Yeah, a little bit. So I think I’m glad that you talked about that because absolutely, like, everything you said, I fully agree with. And I think when we’re down on that distraction scale, that’s one way that we’re not kind of upping the ante or upping the stress response, because I’M showing a child, hey, I’m safe. I’m not towering over you. And that has been something I’ve had to relearn because I’ve been in education now for more than 25 years. So when I was taught, right classroom management, it was very much, you’re in charge, what you say needs to go and you need to hold people to that. And what I’ve learned, the more I’ve learned about how brains change due to trauma, is that that’s actually not going to get me to instruction. Like, I want to position kids to learn so that they can learn standards, they can learn academics. And me just being like big and I’m what I say goes here is not positioning kids for their learning. So I do think we can even begin to think about that idea of co regulating on that continuum, which just makes me super excited, kind of.
[00:15:13] Becca: You. And I love to think about how this looks at all of the different stages. And I think that like my brain tends to go to that more extreme. But more and more we’re thinking through like how when we’re at the lower end of the continuum with those distracting behaviors and those lower level behaviors, if we can co regulate, then what is that doing to avoid those destructive and disruptive behaviors that are extreme and, and intense. And I think that, that we just keep coming up with more conversations to have, but that is where a lot of the most important work can happen in those early stages and that co.
[00:16:00] Ruth: Regulation and it keeps us grounded for the reason why we’re in school, which is to learn. Right.
And I think that’s been a big shift in my thinking as we’ve been talking is like it’s about positioning kids to learn.
It’s also about helping kids heal so they can have these really fruitful lives.
But I’m seeing the bigger picture of it the more that we talk.
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This episode was sponsored by Choice Literacy, a powerful hub of articles, videos and resources for teachers by teachers.